It's perfect acceptable as an entry point when you don't know any better, but if you don't move on to some other group eventually then you're probably an annoying white dude

@Dayglochainsaw PSL is the "I don't know/care what I'm doing so I just decided to go as far as fucking possible without worrying about whether that's a good idea"

@Dayglochainsaw Party for Socialism and Liberation AKA Tankies United

@Dayglochainsaw they think getting people to sit in a room and read a bunch of old books is the best way to start a revolution and also North Korea Very Good And Impeccable

@Dayglochainsaw basically take the rational thought of: Hmm maybe the US overexaggerates North Korea's terribleness

and then wrap that all the way around to North Korea Is Perfect And Best Korea

I think this undersells how bad PSL are, here's their dues structure Show more

re: I think this undersells how bad PSL are, here's their dues structure Show more

I think this undersells how bad PSL are, here's their dues structure Show more

@norikawa @Dayglochainsaw getting people to read a lot is pretty revolutionary...not the end all be all...but it does a lot of good...the rest of the stuff wouldn't exactly be the conclusion one who read a lot would really come to, me thinks...seems a like the reading list is a bit on the indoctrination angle

People who could benefit from a leftist education the most also usually have the least free time so

@Dayglochainsaw @norikawa good thing there are sources available like audiobooks (really glad there's plenty of those on youtube for free) :blobcatcoffee:

@Dayglochainsaw This actually has me a little ruffled, since it's the org I spend the most time with, so in the spirit of not being defensive: what makes you say that?

Idk what things are like in your city, each local org is a bit different, but in Philly the DSA is generally only concerned with canvassing and electoralism, largely centered around Medicare for all. Which is alright, but I honestly think a mindset of "we just have to get the right people into power" is a pretty top-down way of thinking which falls a bit short, and can easily be co-opted by liberal NGOs and other more moderate factions.

It's why I work with Philly Socialists instead, they focus more on bottom-up base-building projects which can provide infastructure so that communities can grow stronger, and provide immediate support to the most vulnerable, like with their free ESL classes or the Philly Tenant's Union. They're more interested in providing the framework for systems of mutual aid and direct action that can be run by the communities themselves after it's been established.

@Dayglochainsaw Yeah, it really comes down to your local. I'm in NYC, and it's kind of the only actual "end capitalism" group with any traction. There's a lot of specific issue groups (tenant coalitions etc) and there's Occupy, but the largest surviving Occupy shard that I've seen do a single thing is six members.

Oddly, even though we got AOC in, Electoral here isn't that strong. Eco, Feminist, Racial Justice, and Housing are all way stronger.

Sounds like that's not a coincidence tho, I'd say having active lefitst groups doing things in the community impacts people's politics just as much as canvassing does, if not more

@Dayglochainsaw canvassing's a tactic inside a larger escalation strategy. It's low risk, but often necessary to building to larger tasks. I think of it like laying out tinder, though in some ways you never really stop (i.e. strikers often canvass).

There is definitely a problem of "we canvass so we can canvass more" among some activists, which I think comes out of a sort of fear.

@Dayglochainsaw And to back you up: mutual aid stuff is totally necessary. Simply put, a socialist org that isn't shoveling snow is kind of a joke, and its why brakelight clinics are so good (in NYC, we have a group that just swipes people into the subway instead).

It is good to know that Philly DSA is sub par. I know East Bay blows, and Metro-DC and Portland are kind of famously good.

Yeah, like I said, every local org is a bit different. I honestly think there's people doing good work in pretty much every city, but they can be a bit hard to find sometimes, most direct-action organizations are somewhat scattered and informal by design.

@Dayglochainsaw One of the most important lessons you learn from spying on cops is that they consider well-defined, hierarchical orgs with vetting to be relatively easy to infiltrate and subvert, and amorphous blobs of do gooder anarchists to be incredibly frustrating to undermine. Our openness is our strength.

@_ampersand @Dayglochainsaw my local, (Seattle DSA) has people who want to do electoralism, and people who think electoralism is the worst possible thibn we could be doing. I think electoralism is important, but not the only thing we should be focusing on. But I don't think it's about "getting the right people into power," but about using a platoform such as high office to generate support for Socialism. Look at how fast DSA Membership grew after Bernie and AOC.

@_ampersand @Dayglochainsaw I know it's not very popular among the left, but we need spokespeople and legislators to make waves and bring people to the left, even if it's a fairly liberal version of socialism. People will get radicalized if we have visible elected officials who wave the socialism flag

@medic @Dayglochainsaw Yeah, the chance that AOC will successfully implement her GND (and the necessary MMT and FJG that go along with it) in the next two years is a ludicrous standard to expect, but she's already cracking the overton window in necessary ways. There are conversations I can have about socialism with normies that were just not possible even half a year ago.

There's also a lot of Americans who think politics=elections, so if you don't do electoral they think you're a joke

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